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Safety and Religion
Orthodox Jewish Medics Say Beard Ban Discriminates
It has been a continuous debate; when do rules regarding safety compromise personal religious beliefs? Some issues, such as the matter of dreadlocks and the District of Columbia Fire/EMS Department, gain notable attention. Others are not as well known.
In Baltimore County, Maryland, three volunteer firefighters, who are Orthodox Jews, say that a department requirement to be clean shaven discriminates against them. While the practical part, especially for SCBA facepieces, is evident we'd like to know your thoughts. Much of the comments on Facebook center mostly on appearance, that it looks "unprofessional." Some see that this applies equally to N95 and other respirators. Others share that they have mustache, gotee, beard and pass required fit-testing.
- How does your department handle matters of religious beliefs and job requirements?
It has been a continuous debate; when do rules regarding safety compromise personal religious beliefs? Some issues, such as the matter of dreadlocks and the District of Columbia Fire/EMS Department, gain notable attention. Others are not as well known.
In Baltimore County, Maryland, three volunteer firefighters, who are Orthodox Jews, say that a department requirement to be clean shaven discriminates against them. While the practical part, especially for SCBA facepieces, is evident we'd like to know your thoughts. Much of the comments on Facebook center mostly on appearance, that it looks "unprofessional." Some see that this applies equally to N95 and other respirators. Others share that they have mustache, gotee, beard and pass required fit-testing.
- How does your department handle matters of religious beliefs and job requirements?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Anthony Gorman on -
OSHA 1910.134 states that you can not have facial hair to be fit tested.
"the employer shall not permit respirators with tight fitting facepieces to be worn by employees who have facial hair that comes between the sealing surface of the facepiece and the face or that interferes with the valve function"
That's enough for me. The department can make reasonable accomodations (PAPR vs. APRs) however with SCBA I think that they can not waive it due to safety reasons.
I am not a FF so I'll step out now. I understand too the "clean shaven" professional. I agree with that mindset too.
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Permalink Reply by blair4630 on -
I don't know anyone in Israel, do you? Does anyone here? It would be interesting to get their take on it.
Duncan Hitchcock said:No one? Would seem kinda logical to see how this question in addressed in countries of a theocratic nature; both our brothers of Muslim and Jewish states. I've seen pictures of EMS responders in the Middle East with beards. But I don't recall any pictures of fire fighters with beards. Interesting.
Wonder how countries with such fundamental religious sects address the safety of their fire fighters?
Duncan Hitchcock said:SO, has anyone checked with fire departments in Israel to see how they address this?
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on -
blair,
You didn't answer the question. How many firefighters with facial hair have gone down from that big gulp of toxins to which you refer? The answer is "zero" or very close to it, because with the positive pressure SCBA that have been in use for the last quarter of a century, any leak is a fresh air leaking to the atmosphere, not the other way around.
Further, OSHA is a regulatory body not a legislative or judicial one. The judicial standards trump the regulatory standards every time. I have no problem at all with allowing people their court-ordered religious freedoms, beards included. I've also seen men with full beards pass the fit test, which tells me that the OSHA standard should be "pass the fit test", not "no facial hair".
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Permalink Reply by TheCannulator on -
Maybe we have to wait until after the sabbath? ;)
Duncan Hitchcock said:No one? Would seem kinda logical to see how this question in addressed in countries of a theocratic nature; both our brothers of Muslim and Jewish states. I've seen pictures of EMS responders in the Middle East with beards. But I don't recall any pictures of fire fighters with beards. Interesting. Wonder how countries with such fundamental religious sects address the safety of their fire fighters?
Duncan Hitchcock said:SO, has anyone checked with fire departments in Israel to see how they address this?
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Permalink Reply by asysin2leads on -
So Ben, you're saying that a firefighter has an ill-fitted positive pressure face piece will not suffer any ill-effects in the short term, or the long term, from the routine exposure to noxious chemicals and gases involved in firefighting? I'm sure there's a few disability pensions that say otherwise floating around the country.
You know I came across a command order for the firefighters I work with a little while back reiterating that SCBA masks were not to be removed for any purposes, no matter how briefly, during operations... and apparently this stemmed from some very real cases of ill effects, including a death, I believe, from doing just that.
Seems they think a good fitting seal is a pretty important thing...
Ben Waller said:blair,
You didn't answer the question. How many firefighters with facial hair have gone down from that big gulp of toxins to which you refer? The answer is "zero" or very close to it, because with the positive pressure SCBA that have been in use for the last quarter of a century, any leak is a fresh air leaking to the atmosphere, not the other way around.
Further, OSHA is a regulatory body not a legislative or judicial one. The judicial standards trump the regulatory standards every time. I have no problem at all with allowing people their court-ordered religious freedoms, beards included. I've also seen men with full beards pass the fit test, which tells me that the OSHA standard should be "pass the fit test", not "no facial hair".
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Gaudio on -
I respect the beliefs of others, as long as their beliefs don't pose harm to others, ofcourse. But I feel that there should be a line between honoring a persons religion and enforcing the rules of the work place. If a job requires a person to be clean shaved, that's the rules. I don't see how that's discriminating against a person's religion. If my fire department requires that all firefighters are forbidden to have facial hair, and that's against a firefighter's religion, then it's against his religion to be a firefighter at that department.
Rules go for one, should go for all. No exceptions.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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asys, mask removal was not under discussion.
You assume that "facial hair equals ill-fitted mask" and that this further leads to inhalation of toxic productes. Those are not accurate assumptions.
It is possible to pass a mask fit test with facial hair - firefighters do it all the time.
With positive pressure SCBA, any seal leak will be SCBA air leaking to the outside, not toxins leaking in.
Assuming that facial hair equals a bad seal or toxin inhalation simply isn't borne out by the evidence.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Jeff,
When you're talking about freedom of religion the individual's Constitutional rights trump the employer's wish for uniformity every time.
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Permalink Reply by Duncan Hitchcock on -
This is why I wish we had some brothers or sisters from the Middle East that couls comment on how this issue is addressed in their societies. Safety vs. religious beliefs.
Ben Waller said:Jeff,
When you're talking about freedom of religion the individual's Constitutional rights trump the employer's wish for uniformity every time.
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Permalink Reply by blair4630 on
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I didn't answer the question because I don't know the answer. I understand what you're saying about the positive pressure making up for lack of a perfect seal, but I can't imagine a full beard getting a good seal. And one or two good inhalations of some of the stuff produced in a fire would probably be enough to put someone out of commission. Ther are plenty of deadly chemicals, as you know, in smoke.
When it comes to stuff like safety standards with our PPE, it should be one standard for all, in my opinion. I think if the grooming standards are meant for something like a mask seal, and for no other reason, then they need to be uniform across the board, one way or another.
Ben Waller said:blair,
You didn't answer the question. How many firefighters with facial hair have gone down from that big gulp of toxins to which you refer? The answer is "zero" or very close to it, because with the positive pressure SCBA that have been in use for the last quarter of a century, any leak is a fresh air leaking to the atmosphere, not the other way around.
Further, OSHA is a regulatory body not a legislative or judicial one. The judicial standards trump the regulatory standards every time. I have no problem at all with allowing people their court-ordered religious freedoms, beards included. I've also seen men with full beards pass the fit test, which tells me that the OSHA standard should be "pass the fit test", not "no facial hair".
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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blair,
Once again, if there is a leak in the mask seal, the toxic atmosphere will not leak into the mask.
If there is a leak due to a beard, facial scars, a change in facial structure since the last fit test, or even a damaged mask, the SCBA air positive pressure keeps the toxins out of the mask.
And...if the firefighter can pass the fit test with a full beard (and it's possible to do so if you keep the beard trimmed) then there won't be any leaks at all. Once again, there has never been a single documented case of a firefighter having a positive pressure mask seal leak due to facial hair that let him/her inhale smoke or other toxins.
I'm not sure why you keep harping on a possible leak creating the risk of toxin inhalation - if the positive pressure demand mask is working, no leak is going to let toxins into the mask. If the positive pressure feature is not working, then either the firefighter is bailing out while using the emergency bypass valve to create positive pressure, or the mask has failed completely and the wearer will have to either remove the mask, remove the 2nd stage regulator, or suffocate.
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Permalink Reply by asysin2leads on
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Ben, yes you can get an adequate face seal with facial hair. Properly trimmed goatees, even those Village People-esque handlebar mustaches, no problem there. However, I believe this issue is for a FULL BEARD. Now if you think you really can get a proper seal on an SCBA with a full lengthed man's beard, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
If a firefighter has a constantly leaking SCBA face piece, it also will use up his air supply more quickly, putting his colleagues and the people he's supposed to be protecting at further risk by shortening his air time in an undue fashion. Now I have never actually field tested an SCBA over a full length person's beard.
But what comes down to is that they can prove that they can get a proper fit seal with their style of facial hair, then Federal Law has said time and again you can express your religion in an unoffensive manner if it does not interfere with their job duties.
Ben Waller said:blair,
Once again, if there is a leak in the mask seal, the toxic atmosphere will not leak into the mask.
If there is a leak due to a beard, facial scars, a change in facial structure since the last fit test, or even a damaged mask, the SCBA air positive pressure keeps the toxins out of the mask.
And...if the firefighter can pass the fit test with a full beard (and it's possible to do so if you keep the beard trimmed) then there won't be any leaks at all. Once again, there has never been a single documented case of a firefighter having a positive pressure mask seal leak due to facial hair that let him/her inhale smoke or other toxins.
I'm not sure why you keep harping on a possible leak creating the risk of toxin inhalation - if the positive pressure demand mask is working, no leak is going to let toxins into the mask. If the positive pressure feature is not working, then either the firefighter is bailing out while using the emergency bypass valve to create positive pressure, or the mask has failed completely and the wearer will have to either remove the mask, remove the 2nd stage regulator, or suffocate.
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