Expelled squad members.

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Permalink Reply by dr-exmedic on October 23, 2009 at 1:19pm

asysin2leads said:

BTW, how do you collapse a water main? Cause water hammer, I assume?

I actually thought it had something to do with our somewhat older pipe system not being able to flow water as fast as the engine could pump it, and actually getting negative pressure in the line, but I can't say for sure as I wasn't present for any of them. EMS is 3rd service there so even though my wife was around for 1 or 2, she wasn't anywhere near the pump control panels.

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Permalink Reply by Eric on October 23, 2009 at 2:13pm

First off, in this day and age why in the world do agencies whether paid or volunteer put anyone on their department without first doing a background check including checking with other agencies that the prospective member may have worked/volunteered for.

I completely agree that there should not be elections for officers in an emergency services organization. I feel that the chief of the organization should be appointed by the governing body of the jurisdiction, and the chief should appoint the other officers. I also feel that the other officers should be appointed based on a combination of experience and ability.

I get so sick and tired of the entire volunteer vs. paid crap. I work as a full time paramedic and I also volunteer at a fire/ems department where everyone is required to be at least an EMT B. We are also a provisional paramedic service. The bottom line at least in my area we get the same training and sometimes better training at my volunteer department, than we do at my paid service. I know that this is not the case everywhere. I thought that the emergency service was supposed to be a brotherhood but apparently it isn't anymore. You are only a brother if you get a paycheck and you are a paramedic? I think that is complete crap. I can say with complete confidence that some of the best paramedics I know are on volunteer services. But then again this is small town IA/ IL.

Lastly, I think part of the thing that turns us against each other is the armchair quarterbacking that goes on. Unfortunately it has happened in this thread. I don’t mean to pick on you dr-exmedic but you come on here alluding to how some volunteers are idiots because they collapsed a water main. I don’t know your background, but from your original post I had thought that maybe you were on a combination fire/ems department. Come to find out from your second post that you are not really sure what “collapsing a water main” is and you weren’t even there when it happened. I am not sure if you are aware of all of the responsibilities that the pump operator has at a fire scene and until you are the one standing in front of the pump panel, I don’t think that it is fair for you to judge someone else and even so you were not there. Everyone reacts differently under different circumstances and as long as the reactions are reasonable with what other people with the same training would do under like circumstances the reaction isn’t necessarily wrong.

Sorry for the long post and rant but this always gets to me. I just wish that we could learn to work together no matter what our certification card says or whether we are doing it for free or for a pay check.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Gaudio on October 23, 2009 at 2:27pm

Eric, I agree with you about the elected positions. Members should have to test for the positions they are running for. This would help lower the favoritism and will put the most qualified person in that officer spot. To me in a volunteer organization, an officer position just means a glorified title. Because what did that officer do so great that allowed them to move up in the department? Usually nothing except a few drinks for the voting members and probably some trash talking on the other guy.

Eric said:

First off, in this day and age why in the world do agencies whether paid or volunteer put anyone on their department without first doing a background check including checking with other agencies that the prospective member may have worked/volunteered for.

I completely agree that there should not be elections for officers in an emergency services organization. I feel that the chief of the organization should be appointed by the governing body of the jurisdiction, and the chief should appoint the other officers. I also feel that the other officers should be appointed based on a combination of experience and ability.

I get so sick and tired of the entire volunteer vs. paid crap. I work as a full time paramedic and I also volunteer at a fire/ems department where everyone is required to be at least an EMT B. We are also a provisional paramedic service. The bottom line at least in my area we get the same training and sometimes better training at my volunteer department, than we do at my paid service. I know that this is not the case everywhere. I thought that the emergency service was supposed to be a brotherhood but apparently it isn't anymore. You are only a brother if you get a paycheck and you are a paramedic? I think that is complete crap. I can say with complete confidence that some of the best paramedics I know are on volunteer services. But then again this is small town IA/ IL.

Lastly, I think part of the thing that turns us against each other is the armchair quarterbacking that goes on. Unfortunately it has happened in this thread. I don’t mean to pick on you dr-exmedic but you come on here alluding to how some volunteers are idiots because they collapsed a water main. I don’t know your background, but from your original post I had thought that maybe you were on a combination fire/ems department. Come to find out from your second post that you are not really sure what “collapsing a water main” is and you weren’t even there when it happened. I am not sure if you are aware of all of the responsibilities that the pump operator has at a fire scene and until you are the one standing in front of the pump panel, I don’t think that it is fair for you to judge someone else and even so you were not there. Everyone reacts differently under different circumstances and as long as the reactions are reasonable with what other people with the same training would do under like circumstances the reaction isn’t necessarily wrong.

Sorry for the long post and rant but this always gets to me. I just wish that we could learn to work together no matter what our certification card says or whether we are doing it for free or for a pay check.

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Permalink Reply by Joe P. on October 23, 2009 at 3:44pm

Eric said:

The bottom line at least in my area we get the same training and sometimes better training at my volunteer department, than we do at my paid service.

See, having 'the same training as the professionals' isn't the issue when the training is kept low because of the volunteers. How would the volunteers react if our entry level required 2 years of education like what is seen in Ontario, Canada?

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Permalink Reply by Eric on October 23, 2009 at 4:09pm

Maybe I am not seeing this clearly but how can in your eyes low training standards be blamed on the volunteers?

Joe P. said:

Eric said:

The bottom line at least in my area we get the same training and sometimes better training at my volunteer department, than we do at my paid service.

See, having 'the same training as the professionals' isn't the issue when the training is kept low because of the volunteers. How would the volunteers react if our entry level required 2 years of education like what is seen in Ontario, Canada?

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Permalink Reply by Joe P. on October 23, 2009 at 4:41pm

I asked first, but I'll answer anyways. Why is it that every single discussion on education has someone bring up the 'trouble recruiting volunteers?" Heck, I'll pull up a quote from this very message board.


Paula said:

So far, from what I've read here, you have all succeeded in eliminating volunteer EMS/ambulance services in our country. Now what? Who will provide emergency care to our small towns and rural areas? I believe in having a standardized system, but let's not forfeit care for credentials.

Dana Love said:

Part of that is sensible education. (See, it's not off track.) Sensible education requirements, and a system which accommodates distance learning, different times of day, weekend training, and the like...works.

(If I do the National Health Services Corp and work in an under severed areas, I don't get a special medical school schedule or shorter education than any other physicians...)

Joseph Moore said:

The rural EMS people and the volunteer EMS people have enough problems staffing their rural and/or volunteer agencies with the minimal training levels that are are currently determined, some on a county basis, others on a a state basis. The needs of rural communities are definitely different that the needs of urban communities.

http://connect.jems.com/forum/topics/what-if-you-decided-the

...and that's just through page 3 of 12 on a single thread in a single forum of volunteers complaining that the 110 hour standard was too much to handle. As such, the volunteers act as a brake that prevents EMS from requiring such sensible education requirements as a college level anatomy and physiology courses or series.

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Permalink Reply by Skip Kirkwood on October 24, 2009 at 11:36am

Yeah, there IS a difference between rural and urban EMS. Because response, patient access, and transport times are longer, rural areas require BETTER medics than those who have a hospital right around the corner. If this was a rational world, instead of a political one, the standards for rural medics would be MUCH HIGHER. The "save the volunteers" movement is just standing in the way of developing a competent alternative to what exists today.


Joe P. said:

I asked first, but I'll answer anyways. Why is it that every single discussion on education has someone bring up the 'trouble recruiting volunteers?" Heck, I'll pull up a quote from this very message board.


Paula said:

So far, from what I've read here, you have all succeeded in eliminating volunteer EMS/ambulance services in our country. Now what? Who will provide emergency care to our small towns and rural areas? I believe in having a standardized system, but let's not forfeit care for credentials.

Dana Love said:

Part of that is sensible education. (See, it's not off track.) Sensible education requirements, and a system which accommodates distance learning, different times of day, weekend training, and the like...works.

(If I do the National Health Services Corp and work in an under severed areas, I don't get a special medical school schedule or shorter education than any other physicians...)

Joseph Moore said:

The rural EMS people and the volunteer EMS people have enough problems staffing their rural and/or volunteer agencies with the minimal training levels that are are currently determined, some on a county basis, others on a a state basis. The needs of rural communities are definitely different that the needs of urban communities.

http://connect.jems.com/forum/topics/what-if-you-decided-the

...and that's just through page 3 of 12 on a single thread in a single forum of volunteers complaining that the 110 hour standard was too much to handle. As such, the volunteers act as a brake that prevents EMS from requiring such sensible education requirements as a college level anatomy and physiology courses or series.

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Permalink Reply by Skip Kirkwood on October 24, 2009 at 11:38am

Kinda like how you collapse a straw - suck harder than the structure can bear!

asysin2leads said:

Dude, I live on the Eastern seaboard. How do you think I have so much experience with the New Jersey squad shenanigans? BTW, how do you collapse a water main? Cause water hammer, I assume?

dr-exmedic said:

asysin2leads said:

Okay, this has to be New Jersey. Absolutely has to be. No other place on earth considers it to be prestigious to be part of a volunteer BLS service.

People will take pride in anything that makes them feel special, and I think helping people (however you define it) certainly counts, though some people don't even need that high a bar. Hell, people will take pride in accomplishments that aren't even theirs--I'm living smack in the middle of Steeler Nation and work a couple blocks from its Ground Zero (Heinz Field), so I see that every day (and more on game day).

Next time you're on the eastern seaboard, let me take you through PA. In addition to the BLS ambulance prestige, we also have people who are quite proud to be FFs--despite the fact that some of them are not even certified and have collapsed water mains at several fires in a row. (The real kicker: one of the guys who volunteers there works for the township's water authority as his real job.)

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Permalink Reply by Skip Kirkwood on October 24, 2009 at 11:42am

Eric, you've got to get out more!

The volunteers, as organized groups (such as the New Jersey State First Aid Council, the Oregon Volunteer Ambulance Association, and many others) have consistently used legislative and political means to fight elevated training standards. Whenever there is a change, the "poor volunteers" hymn gets whipped out, a few state EMS directors get run out of office, etc. Same thing has been going on since 1967, in nearly identical cycles.

Eric said:

Maybe I am not seeing this clearly but how can in your eyes low training standards be blamed on the volunteers?

Joe P. said:

Eric said:

The bottom line at least in my area we get the same training and sometimes better training at my volunteer department, than we do at my paid service.

See, having 'the same training as the professionals' isn't the issue when the training is kept low because of the volunteers. How would the volunteers react if our entry level required 2 years of education like what is seen in Ontario, Canada?

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Permalink Reply by asysin2leads on October 24, 2009 at 12:44pm

Eric, this is where you're wrong. It is not reasonable to collapse a water main during a fire operation. Now if the water main was structurally unsound, and operations were conducted using accepted guidelines, well, then there's nothing you can do.
However, if its a case of someone collapsing a water because of improper action, then it is exactly the difference between a professional and anyone else. A professional can put the fire out AND not collapse the water system. A volunteer shows up and does his or her best.
So to is it with the EMS system. We have plenty of people who know CPR. We even have some that can intubate. But it is a very small percentage who can do all of that, day in, day out, up to professional standards, everyday of the week, no matter what the circumstances. The fact they can do this means that they can make somewhat of a living doing it. These are professionals, and if you want proper medical treatment to be administered to your citizens, and to have your infrastructure stay intact while doing so, its who you need to have on staff in your Fire and EMS services. Someone who can't do their job is not my brother, my sister, nor my colleague, just because they have a uniform on.




Lastly, I think part of the thing that turns us against each other is the armchair quarterbacking that goes on. Unfortunately it has happened in this thread. I don’t mean to pick on you dr-exmedic but you come on here alluding to how some volunteers are idiots because they collapsed a water main. I don’t know your background, but from your original post I had thought that maybe you were on a combination fire/ems department. Come to find out from your second post that you are not really sure what “collapsing a water main” is and you weren’t even there when it happened. I am not sure if you are aware of all of the responsibilities that the pump operator has at a fire scene and until you are the one standing in front of the pump panel, I don’t think that it is fair for you to judge someone else and even so you were not there. Everyone reacts differently under different circumstances and as long as the reactions are reasonable with what other people with the same training would do under like circumstances the reaction isn’t necessarily wrong.

Sorry for the long post and rant but this always gets to me. I just wish that we could learn to work together no matter what our certification card says or whether we are doing it for free or for a pay check.

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Permalink Reply by dr-exmedic on October 26, 2009 at 5:33pm

Eric said:

I don’t mean to pick on you dr-exmedic but you come on here alluding to how some volunteers are idiots because they collapsed a water main....I am not sure if you are aware of all of the responsibilities that the pump operator has at a fire scene and until you are the one standing in front of the pump panel, I don’t think that it is fair for you to judge someone else and even so you were not there.

Sorry, I am not fully clear. Both the fire marshal and several of the younger members of the department (who have actually taken FF classes) have noted that the "I've been doing this forever, you can't tell me how to run a pump" guys collapsed the mains due to poor technique--I may not have been there but have been able to rely on the experts (at least relative to me) who were. They also regularly cause such a water hammer effect while training that the EMS station (which shares a line with the training center) has had the pressure gauge on the sprinkler standpipe peg at the red line and start leaking--but that doesn't happen with every training session, so clearly it's just certain people.

However, my main point was not that some people (paid or volunteer) are idiots, it's that some people will take pride in doing something that makes them feel special...no matter whether they are actually good at it or not. That could happen in just about any setting--I'm sure somewhere there are Habitat for Humanities volunteers who are convinced of how their carpentry skills are helping people but don't know they are holding the hammer the wrong way.

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